Raydium 3D Game Engine

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:37 pm 
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It's funny, I had the same discussion fex days ago on an other game.
4 levels of details and 4 levels of texture size like 512x512 256x256 128x128 64x64

About the alternative way :

Main blocks share the same texture like grass, road, sand, rocks.. But each block has a single texure with only the shadow map that's right ?

Why do you said it will be less impressive ? the shadowmap is the same but applied in raydium with multitexturing and not composited in blender.

Oh probably using a low resolution shadowmap can increase rendering time but be less impressive.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:25 am 
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SamB wrote:
It's funny, I had the same discussion fex days ago on an other game.
4 levels of details and 4 levels of texture size like 512x512 256x256 128x128 64x64

Yes, that's the idea :)

Quote:
Main blocks share the same texture like grass, road, sand, rocks.. But each block has a single texure with only the shadow map that's right ?
Right, and as you know(i suppose) a shadow map is really a grey map, so it is quite light for the memory. Or even the shadow map could be black and white one, in that way the size in memory will be minimal.

Quote:
Why do you said it will be less impressive ?


I said that it will be less impressive cause a full baked texture in blender will include, apart of the shadows, minor changes in tone/hue, brightness, etc.
Using the alternative way, the color will be fixed, just the shadows will be applied. Of course some effects could be applied after that, in realtime, but we are talking about baking. :)

And i have though a new alternative:

Mixing shadow maps with full maps.
Shadow maps could be used in nearly objects and full maps could be used in distant objects. In that way we don't have to apply a lot of multitexturing with distant objects, just with closer ones, and so just quite small full textures will be placed in memory, and the big textures will be just for shadow maps.


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 Post subject: Workflow proposal
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:57 pm 
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I think the "new alternative" better than other !

Here's a possible workflow :


In ManiaDrive :

According to distance to camera :

LOD=1
- faces = x
- colormap = 512x512
- shadowmap = 512x512 (multitexturing)
- physics added for collision

LOD=2
- faces = x/2
- colormap = 256x256
- shadowmap = 256x256 (multitexturing)
- physics added for collision

LOD=1
- faces = x/4
- colormap = 128x128
- shadowmap blended with colormap
- physics not needed (object too far away for collision detection )

LOD=1
- faces = x/8
- colormap = 64x64
- shadowmap blended with clormap
- physics not needed

// About shadowmaps, reduce colorpalette (in greyscale) will be better than keep them complete and more beautiful than black and white ones.


In Blender :

LOD=1
- Modeling = hires block
- Lighting = save shadowmap separate from colormap ( baking )

LOD=2
- Modeling = decimate hires block / 2
- Scale down texture map / 2
- Scale down shadow map / 2


LOD=3
- Modeling = decimate LOD2block / 2
- Scale down texture map / 2
- Scale down shadow map / 2
- Blend color and shawdow in a single map


LOD=4
- Modeling = decimate LOD3block / 2
- Scale down LOD3 map / 2


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 Post subject: Re: Workflow proposal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:50 pm 
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SamB wrote:
LOD=1
- faces = x/4
- colormap = 128x128
- shadowmap blended with colormap
- physics not needed (object too far away for collision detection )

I think, and surely Xfennec will ensure about it, that is not a good way to remove physics to an object. Surely the good way could be to change the collision shape to a box

Xfennec, how do you see this idea?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:56 pm 
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here's the first screenshot of the new world. Just to show basic blocks.

No texture here :)

Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:19 pm 
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Location: gnniiiii (Scrat)
Good to see that things moves ! :)

About LOD, my opinion stays the same : it's not suitable for blocks rendering nor for physics.
For example, OPCODE (the subproject that handles trimeshes in ODE) is very effective when it comes to deal with huge trimeshes (you'll find people on ODE mailing list using 100K triangles objects "as-is" with ODE). Trying to "help" OPCODE on this point is an error, It can only be slower :)

For the rendering part, Apart from what I've already said, having LOD models will eat more memory: having only a few models to render does not means that others models are not in the video card. And again, having a LOD at block level will probably generate a lot of "popping", unlike "unified" LOD (roaming).

About shadow baking, it's sure it could looks great, but we must generate one shadow map per block (since other textures will be probably shared between blocks), so we must check how many memory all this will eat (we can add an option to disable this feature). The other drawbacks is that blocks may look strange, since shadows will only "comes" from themselves and not from other blocks (projected shadows).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:37 pm 
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about shadowmapping and lightmapping. I've a little idea.

First, it's possible to me to render individual map based on self-shadowing for each block. Look at ambient occlusion to understand what I say.
I can make a big map containing all individuals maps. This way, it will be easier to control the memory eating and disable the map if needed.

I readed that we can load map up to 2048*2048. I can mix all the maps in a 1024*1024 .tga in greyscale. ( less memory).

About the shadowmap :
Is it possible to render a texture inside raydium ? I'll explain.

The user makes his track. at this time, there're no direct shadows. A "shadows generator" generate a big shadowmap for the whole scene ( like the one discuting above) based on the sun position. After that the engine apply this map to the track using orco mapping.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:47 pm 
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I made some "bridge" blocks.

here's a try using lot of blocks.

Image

this is just a try. I'll probably change my method to create blocks. This set is good but I want to make beautiful and impressive blocks.

I'll test a new method tomorrow


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:24 am 
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Nice :) It makes this track looking ... "heavy", no ? Perhaps bridge columns are too big ?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:39 am 
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the goal is to make an heavy track to study how many blocks I can add without slow down the game. On my computer, this one is faster than canyon or monaco.

the culumms are big because they're not textured. Idealy, I 'll put a texture with an alphamap like this

http://www.alsapresse.com/coups_de_coeur/galerie/darek/pont.JPG

but forget this track. i'm making better new blocks[/url]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:47 am 
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new block and basic texture test ( I've to rotate some uvs :)

Image

There're only 2 block done but driving on this track is really fun !!

I hope to complete this set of 13 flat blocks this week


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:22 pm 
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Well, great ! I'll try to work on the new car physics for this world as soon as you release a few blocks. What sort of "drinving style" did you see here ? ("simulation", very arcade with stable and fast cars, cross, ...)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:12 pm 
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the better will be a mix of arcade and simulation.

Trackmania is really too arcarde, you can drive at 300 km/h and keep the car on the road when you turn. In ManiaDrive, the clio leave the ground at 160...

I think the car could be faster and more stable but it will be great to keep driving feel like slowdown before a turn, barrels if drive to fast ( at 250km/h :)
Big slide on turns like in ridge racer could be an other great thing.

I finish all the flat block and send them.


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